Data-Dog... I like the way you think. Point/Counterpoint. If a Witness says that Jesus is everyone's mediator in a sense, but truly only mediator of the "new covenant of 144,000", then I guess there's a couple of angles we could take. First, I'd immediately refer back to 1 Tim 2:1-7. It straightforwardly says that Jesus is "mediator"... there's no "in a sense" to it. If Jesus is mediator in a sense, then Jehovah must be "one God" in a sense. Next, the context of those verses shows that his mediatorship is not limited to 144,000 but all mankind. How would you handle it?
Darth Rutherford
JoinedPosts by Darth Rutherford
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Jehovah's Witnesses: Who's Your Mediator?
by Darth Rutherford inis jesus your mediator?
were these men anointed christians?
... jesus christ, is not the mediator between jehovah god and all mankind.
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Julia gets hit with the Shun Gun for the first time...and it really hurts.
by Julia Orwell inmy jw friend of 20 years, the first one i ever met, the one who got me into jwism in the first place, unfriended me from facebook without explanation.
other jws who have unfriended me at least called me names (apostate) and told me they were unfriending me, but they were no loss.
but someone who's been your friend since you were 13...and no explanation...i'd think 20 years- 20 years!
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Darth Rutherford
Julia... it also happened to me not too long ago. It's tough... and it hurts. Though we expect the shunning, there's something deep inside the heart that hopes our closest friends will be different -that the special friendship we have with them will supercede cult mentality. It's a heartbreak when we discover that doesn't happen.
I am truly sorry... and my heart goes out to you. You're not alone.
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Jehovah's Witnesses: Who's Your Mediator?
by Darth Rutherford inis jesus your mediator?
were these men anointed christians?
... jesus christ, is not the mediator between jehovah god and all mankind.
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Darth Rutherford
That's interesting... I did not know that. It makes sense though. The change in the 'mediator' teaching in the late 70's/early 80's occured during the Fred Franz' era.
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Jehovah's Witnesses: Who's Your Mediator?
by Darth Rutherford inis jesus your mediator?
were these men anointed christians?
... jesus christ, is not the mediator between jehovah god and all mankind.
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Darth Rutherford
Great point Humbled... I'm going to use that verse. Witnesses aren't following the Lamb - they're following men. The Lamb wouldn't send them on wild goose chases and call it "new light". No, they aren't following the Lamb, they are "putting their trust in nobles" and getting misled!
Prologos... you're right! The few elders who can intelligently discuss it are also connecting the dots and seeing it for what it is - ABSOLUTELY WRONG! How can one claim to be a Christian, but deny Christ as his/her mediator?
Outlaw... love it! These goofballs control the beliefs and thinking of millions around the world! That's scary!
Rip... You're not alone! I, too, was shocked when I discovered that I belonged to a faith that didn't recognize Jesus as my mediator. I was an elder and somehow overlooked that! Witnesses follow this because they also have been dulled down - they don't do real research, they don't ask questions, and they don't think. It's truly a shame!
I hope sincere Witnesses will read this and look up the references. Christians are supposed to ask questions and "test the inspired expressions." It's a command! If you don't ask questions... then you WILL be misled.
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Jehovah's Witnesses: Who's Your Mediator?
by Darth Rutherford inis jesus your mediator?
were these men anointed christians?
... jesus christ, is not the mediator between jehovah god and all mankind.
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Darth Rutherford
A mediator can be defined as one who interposes between parties in order to reconcile them. At 1 Timothy 2:5, 6, the apostle Paul explains to Timothy that Jesus is the mediator between God and men. Yes, the relationship between God and sinful men needed a mediator in order to reconcile the two opposing parties. Jesus, the promised Christ and Messiah, proved to be that mediator. His death paved the way to ransom mankind from sin and death, thus restoring the severed relationship.
The concept of the ransom is in itself a serious topic that all Christians need to study and understand; however, we are not going to go into that subject or why it was necessary. Our focus will remain on the fact that the Bible specifically addresses Jesus Christ as the mediator between God and men. The question being: who are the men that Jesus mediates for?
A Mediator for Whom?
Is Jesus your mediator? Impulsively Jehovah's Witnesses will likely want to answer in the affirmative. However, a learned Witness who is up-to-date on his beliefs will likely answer “no.” This may or may not surprise you. The publication Worldwide Security Under the “Prince of Peace” answers: “Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members.” (ws pp. 10-11 par. 16) According to the beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jesus Christ is mediator only for the anointed 144,000. He is not the mediator for the non-anointed “Other Sheep” as well as the rest of mankind.
Surprisingly, many Witnesses are not aware of this detail in their beliefs. Actually, this has not always been the official interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:5. When referencing this verse, The Watchtower stated an alternative view in 1974: “As to his love for the people whom he will rule, Jesus gave his life so that they could have their sins and imperfections removed. He bought the human race—all of them, from the greatest to the least.” (w1974 2/1 p. 70) At that time it appeared that Jesus’ mediatorship involved all mankind and applied to those who faithfully followed him and served Jehovah.
Then in late 1979 a change occurred regarding this teaching. In a study article titled, “Benefiting from ‘One Mediator Between God and Men’”, The Watchtower laid the groundwork for the change by pointing out that the phrase “between God and men” does not actually say “all men”. Then the lesson continued stating:
Jesus’ "corresponding ransom for all" lays the basis for men and women of all sorts to become spiritual Israelites and be brought into the new covenant of which Christ Jesus is the "one mediator." There are still more than 9,000 who profess to be spiritual Israelites in the new covenant. Like Paul and Timothy, these are ‘ministers of a new covenant.’ (2 Cor. 3:6; 1:1) Evidently the new covenant is nearing the end of its operation for the purpose of producing 144,000 spiritual Israelites who meet God’s approval for being associated with Jesus Christ in the heavenly kingdom, the ideal government for mankind. –w1979 11/15 pp. 26-27 pars. 20-22.
Just like that, the majority of Witnesses who are not part of the 144,000 anointed remnant found themselves without a mediator. Evidently, according to the revised teaching, we need a ransom –just not a mediator. Not surprisingly, questions began pouring in from everywhere. The Watchtower addressed these questions a few months later in the April 1, 1979, “Questions From Readers”.
The Watchtower again addressed the topic in the August 15, 1989 edition under “Questions From Readers”. In a rather lengthy and complicated explanation, it defines what the Greek word for “mediator” means, and the use of it as a legal term. However, could this once simple teaching really be so complicated? Paul says “there is one God, and one mediator between God and men.” How could a verse that was so universal in its understanding and application suddenly be wrong –limited now to only 144,000 Christians?
“All Sorts of Men”
To test this inspired expression, let us first consider the context of Paul’s words:
I therefore exhort, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, offerings of thanks, be made concerning all sorts of men, concerning kings and all those who are in high station; in order that we may go on leading a calm and quiet life with full godly devotion and seriousness. This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times. For the purpose of this witness I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—a teacher of nations in the matter of faith and truth. –1 Timothy 2:1-7.
Review the context. Understand its point. What is Paul trying to say? When reading these verses, to what kind of men is he referring? At first he exhorts that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and offerings of thanks be made concerning “kings and all those who are in high station”. Were these men anointed Christians? It is safe to assume they were not. Next, he says that it is God’s will that “all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth”. Obviously, these men are not anointed Christians either since they had not come to an accurate knowledge of truth yet.
After mentioning Jesus as the mediator, Paul then says that Jesus “gave himself a corresponding ransom for all”. Did Jesus give himself a ransom for only the anointed 144,000? Of course not! Lastly, Paul shows that it is his purpose to witness to the “nations” that Jesus is mediator and ransomer. Clearly, all the men mentioned in the context of these verses were not anointed Christians.
Next, when we examine the word “men” in the phrase “between God and men”, we discover the Greek word anthropon. This is a derivative of the word anthrópos, which is the generic term for mankind, the human race, all people –men and women. For example, Jesus used the word anthropon at Matthew 4:19 when he said, “Come after me, and I will make YOU fishers of men [anthropon].” Jesus again used the word at Luke 19:30, “Go into the village that is within sight of YOU, and in it after YOU pass in YOU will find a colt tied, on which none of mankind [anthropon] ever sat.”
Paul used the word anthropon at 1 Timothy 4:10, “For to this end we are working hard and exerting ourselves, because we have rested our hope on a living God, who is a Savior of all sorts of men [anthropon], especially of faithful ones.” Certainly, anthropon in this verse is not limited to anointed Christians, but to all mankind –including ones who are not faithful Christians.
Paul also used the word anthropon at 1 Timothy 2:1, “I therefore exhort, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, offerings of thanks, be made concerning all sorts of men [anthropon].” He then used the same word again a few verses later when he said, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men [anthropon], a man, Christ Jesus.” According to this Greek word, Jesus, therefore, must be the mediator between God and mankind in general. The Watchtower makes note that Paul did not use the phrase “between God and all men”; however, the word anthropon implies all men –mankind in general –just as it does in all the other scriptural references.
Lastly, does it make sense that Jesus would give himself as a ransom for all, but not mediate for all he ransomed? In one concise statement Paul says: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times.” To say Jesus is mediator for only the 144,000 anointed Christians would be like saying Jehovah is the “one God” only for the 144,000. It just does not make sense that this would be the case.
WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men [anthropon], a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times.” –1 Timothy 2:5, 6
WHAT WATCHTOWER TEACHES“… Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members.” (Worldwide Security Under the “Prince of Peace”, chap. 1 pp. 10-11 par. 16)
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Since Great Crowd has no mediator
by sosoconfused ini am thinking that maybe i missed this discussion or something.
now for years in the org i never ever paid attention to the article that says jesus is the mediator for the 144000 alone.
yesterday talking to my 70+ year old dad he got violently angry with me and threw his cane at me because he said i was a liar.. .
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Darth Rutherford
Learning about Jesus not being my mediator stunned me. I'm a born-in... grew up taking it seriously... eventually became an elder. Yet, somehow I missed that nugget. However, there it was in the publications. I cannot understand how any Witness can seriously tell someone he/she is a Christian, but then reject him as Mediator.
Interestingly, after I stopped going to meetings, and elder came by to check on me. During the discussion I asked him about Jesus' mediatorship. He said he would stop by again and we could discuss it; however, he never did.
Another close friend quit associating with me, saying that the only way I would have learned about this was by visiting "apostate" websites. He totally avoided the fact that it's in the publications. I'm not the apostate -evidently the organization is the apostate by rejecting Christ as the mediator for the vast majority of its members.
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Maybe I am a little dense, but I just realized...
by DATA-DOG inthe wtbts teaches that, " the soul that is sinning..will die.
" this was re-hashed in the what is truth talk at the dc.
so i got to thinking about the wtbts's doctrine.
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Darth Rutherford
I also read something on this board the other day that I found to be an interesting point. If ones are instantly changed in the twinkling of an eye, then obviously there is something that is still living as it makes the transition from physical human to spiritual being. I agree with you Data-dog... I've been pondering on this subject for a while now, and I don't believe our life ends upon our "death".
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Maybe I am a little dense, but I just realized...
by DATA-DOG inthe wtbts teaches that, " the soul that is sinning..will die.
" this was re-hashed in the what is truth talk at the dc.
so i got to thinking about the wtbts's doctrine.
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Darth Rutherford
Great subject, Data-Dog, and you bring out some very logical points! Interestingly, I was having a similar conversation about this same subject last weekend. I said the same thing... the Bible never actually says Adam and Eve would live forever -only WT says that.
From a scientific point of view... everything in this universe wears out, decays, or eventually dies. From atoms to stars... everything eventually decays and comes to an end. Do we actually believe that we will outlive this physical universe -when we are made out of the same "stuff"? That's crazy! WT teaches man will live forever... forever means living beyond the atoms that make up our body. Forever means living beyond our own star and our Milky Way galaxy. Forever means outliving the physical universe! I mean, our teeth will wear out within a couple of centuries... have you ever seen an older person with worn teeth? We're not designed to grow new teeth are we?!
I do believe in a Creator; however, my thinking has evolved considerably. Truth MUST be able to reconcile with the facts of the physical universe, and I see no evidence of anything in the universe literally lasting forever. We definitely are not designed to last forever either -at least in our current state. But, as spiritual beings who are not bound by the physics of this universe, maybe "everlasting life" is the rule -not the exception.
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Kidnaper of 3 Cleveland women - his mom a JW
by Gayle inhttp://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/castro-brothers-spend-night-jail-article-1.1338131#ixzz2sjzrxozd.
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Darth Rutherford
You know, after I read this and thought about it, I can't help but wonder if the mother has a relationship with her son. I have a gut feeling she doesn't. While out in FS, how many times has she ever stopped by his house? Did she ever stop by during the last 10 years? It's a shame that she goes out in FS and knocks on the doors of strangers, but probably never dropped by unannounced to check on her son. I'm not saying it's her fault her son is a sick, twisted individual, but had she checked on her son regularly, maybe she could have caught him, or see something that would have saved those women a little sooner. No way to know for sure. In all fairness, maybe he terminated a relationship with his mother. Who knows?
It's hard to understand how you can keep three people trapped in a house for 10 years and no one notice. Too bad the JW mother didn't notice either.
I am happy the women are safe now.
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Inside the Westboro Baptist Church - Anything Sound Familiar?
by Darth Rutherford ininteresting short interview with a wbc apostate.
i didn't realize they shun too - but, i'm not surprised.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijwzc6mvdkm&feature=player_embedded.
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Darth Rutherford
Interesting short interview with a WBC apostate. I didn't realize they shun too - but, I'm not surprised.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjWzC6mVdKM&feature=player_embedded